Paxil Free

February 28th, 2001.

I began taking Paxil, paroxetine hydrochloride, for depression and post-traumatic stress shortly after a traumatic event in November of 1999. By July 2000, ten months later, my doctor and I agreed that I was doing well enough to stop taking the medication. So I followed his medical advice and discontinued the Paxil. Within 24 hours, I experienced such severe paroxetine withdrawal that I eventually became suicidal — and it scared the hell of me. The neurological trauma of paroxetine withdrawal was more physically and mentally debilitating than any kind of depression I had ever experienced.

Most of the records I kept during my withdrawal experience were in the form of messages I posted to Paxil withdrawal support groups such as paxilprogress.org. Saved on this blog are the most informative of those messages. The postings appear in the order in which they were written, along with all the relevant responses I may have received.

It is a record of my withdrawal experience, not because I’m vain and I like listening to myself talk, but because it’s the only record I kept, and having reviewed all of it recently, I can see that it presents the reality of the experience more accurately than anything else I’d have the energy to put together right now. Along with a support group such as paxilprogress.org, I can’t think of anything more valuable for someone living through paroxetine withdrawal than to read exactly how someone else survived it.

While it’s true that there isn’t a whole lot of fun to be had for someone living through the effects of Paxil withdrawal, the important thing to remember is that you can survive it. That may not sound like much right now, but I have done it and so have many others who had it worse than me. If there’s one thing to learn from the record and testimony on this site, perhaps it’s how to smooth out some of the bumps in the road ahead so that when the worst of it comes at you, it doesn’t knock you so far down that you can never get up again. It can be overcome. As unbearable as it may seem at times, it will eventually go away, and you’ll be all right.

Okay, maybe not all right, but I’m pretty sure you’ll feel at least a thousand times better.

March 10th, 2001.

One more thing before we move on to the journal aspect of this blog…

Having nearly lost my life to Paxil withdrawal and then survived to tell the tale, and having been in communication with others who went through the same thing, I may be qualified to pass along some things I’ve learned from the experience.

The following are some basic facts of paroxetine withdrawal, things you might expect to come face-to-face with while withdrawing from Paxil — keeping in mind, though, that everyone is different and that there are infinite variations to this experience.

#1: Electric Shock Sensations (aka “the zaps”): The pattern of these sensations are remarkably similar to certain kinds of epileptic seizures except that one doesn’t lose consciousness when they occur. (Personally, I would have preferred to have been unconscious.) They are experienced as a strong electric shock sensation behind the eyes which can easily spread to one’s head, face, spine and limbs. The initial surge — which is overwhelming and impossible to ignore — is often followed by a series of lesser surges which gradually dissipate in waves. These seizures are the most physically debilitating and emotionally disturbing of all the paroxetine withdrawal effects — especially if your doctor never warned you about it.
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March 11th, 2001. (Basic Facts – continued)

The Paxil Flu is also known as a complete shut-down of the immune system. It’s most likely to occur at its worst by withdrawing from Paxil cold turkey (which should NEVER be done; if your doctor told you otherwise, you need to find yourself a new doctor NOW). The Paxil Flu also occurs for some people even while they’re weaning slowly. Paroxetine withdrawal is a neurological trauma, and like any traumatic or stressful event, it can have a drain on your vitality, your health and your overall strength. Therefore, you might want to take supplements of certain vitamins which will become depleted by the stress of the withdrawal (B-complex, Vitamins C and E for starters).

Often included with the Paxil Flu are unusual ailments which doctors have no explanation for — and which, in their ignorance, they don’t connect to paroxetine withdrawal. Your doctor may perform every kind of test on you and then say, “I don’t know what’s causing it,” or the classic, “There’s nothing wrong with you” — while in the meantime you feel like you’re dying.

During my cold turkey withdrawal, besides extreme dizziness, headaches and body aches that could register on the Richter Scale, I developed growths under my tongue which were painful and would bleed at the slightest touch. Eventually I had a biopsy performed and my doctor said,”It’s normal tissue.” Great.

It seems to me that most of these medical anomalies are related to the effects of paroxetine; we just don’t how — and neither does the medical community.

The good news about the Paxil Flu is that it can be prevented through a proper use of vitamin supplements, a healthy diet (which does not include caffeine, cigarettes or alcohol) and regular exercise. It’s a simple straight-forward solution, and you’d be surprised at how well it works.

P.S., If you smoke cigarettes and you know you’re hooked, don’t try getting off them now. Caffeine you can probably wean yourself off without too much harm, but nicotine is another story.

March 13th, 2001. (Basic Facts – continued)

Most doctors are completely ignorant as to the withdrawal effects of paroxetine (not that that ever stops them from prescribing these pills as if they were as harmless as Tic-Tacs). My doctor told me, “The great thing about Paxil is that you can stop taking it cold turkey.” It doesn’t get any more ignorant than that.

Chances are you wouldn’t be reading this right now if it wasn’t for your doctor’s ignorance and/or arrogance.

When my doctor told me that I didn’t have to wean myself off the Paxil — this was his trusted medical advice — he was relaying to me information from

“the year 2000 edition of the Compendium of Pharmaceuticals and Specialties [the CPS] which is the information source most widely used by physicians in Canada.”

That’s a quote from an email my doctor sent me, and the italics are mine. (The U.S. equivalent of the CPS is the PDR or the Physicians’ Desk Reference.)

Unfortunately, the information on paroxetine withdrawal which appears in the CPS is based on fraudulent data provided by GlaxoSmithKline, the company that manufactures Paxil.
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March 15th, 2001. (Basic Facts – continued)

If Paxil saved your life, that’s wonderful. But please spare me the hate mail telling me what a jerk I am for giving Paxil such a bad rap. I have no desire to extinguish anyone’s neurochemical happiness. But I do not and will not hide the fact that I am angry about the injustice that I and thousands of others have experienced because of the fraudulent and unethical practices of GlaxoSmithKline — the practices that have left the medical community mis-informed and uninformed as to the full and potential effects of paroxetine withdrawal.

In order to make their $2,000,000,000-plus every year off this drug, GlaxoSmithKline, by not being upfront about the potential effects of paroxetine, lied to the FDA to get approval for Paxil and then continued to perpetuate that lie by hiding the information they had about the full effects of Paxil withdrawal from the medical community.

(Oct. 2006: Here it is five years later, and the wonderful people at GlaxoSmithKline are still up to no good. They are making so much money off Paxil, they can afford to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in fines and still make a profiit. An informative article in The Scoop reads: “A limited review of the company’s involvement in the legal system over just the last five years reveals a clear pattern of habitual corruption. However, although Glaxo has paid billions of dollars in accumulated fines, penalties and awards to plaintiffs in civil cases, not one company official has been arrested and charged with a crime.” The power of a corporation like GSK is incredible. Making billions of dollars every year off Paxil allows them to get away with murder. They can afford it.)

When I first took Paxil, it did help. But when the time came to stop taking it, I suffered through the worst hell of my life — and all of it could have been prevented had GlaxoSmithKline told the truth from the start.
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March 23rd, 2001. (Basic Facts – continued)

Paxil withdrawal can be a killer on all relationships, professional, casual, intimate and familial. So look out.

P.S. (Sept. 2006): Wow, that was a short entry… I’ve decided to remove most of the relationship stuff from Paxil Free, because at the time I wrote it, I was in a bad relationship with someone I thought was absolutely right for me when the truth of the matter is they were absolutely wrong for me. The worst person on the planet I could have ever said hello to. The second biggest mistake of my life next to believing my doctor when he told me going off Paxil cold turkey wouldn’t be a problem. Whatever theories I had about relationships back then we’re more than half-baked. So they’re gone… All I can say about relationships while going through Paxil withdrawal is that I hope you’re in a good one. I don’t know how anyone in the midst of this kind assault on their nervous system manages to work from 9 to 5, manages to take care of kids or meet even a fraction of normal adult responsibilities, including the basic responsibilities that come with being in a relationship.

April 7th, 2001.

I was prescribed Paxil (20mg/daily) for depression and post-traumatic stress in November of 1999. At the same time I began to see a therapist who helped me deal with the symptoms of the post-traumatic stress (which included flashbacks; no fun there, let me tell ya). More than Paxil, more than anything or anyone else, the benefits of this communicative therapy (a.k.a. talking) were immeasurable.

However, the Paxil did provide a certain calm which allowed me to deal more effectively with the emotional trauma of the experience I had gone through. (For my own privacy, I’ve chosen to withhold the exact details of that experience.) It seems to me that Paxil regulates one’s emotions so that they are more manageable. How exactly it does this nobody really knows, but there are a few theories out there which I think have some validity to them.
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This post is the beginning of the journal portion of this blog — the almost-daily record of my Paxil withdrawal experience from July 2000 to January 2001. I haven’t decided how much of it I’m going to revise or delete. I’ll just work my way through it and see how it goes.

Current readers of this blog are welcomed to comment as much as they like. However, I don’t have the time to moderate comments, so they’ll be sent to my email account where I may eventually incorporate them into the blog anonymously. I’m still not comfortable giving advice, so I doubt very much I’ll respond to any comments. (I’d go to paxilprogress.org if you have any questions about Paxil withdrawal.)

Postscipts and comments were added to the original Paxil Free website. New postscripts and comments will be dated and will appear in italics.

Thursday, July 6th, 2000.

I stopped taking Paxil about five days ago. I went through a major trauma last year, and taking the Paxil during that crisis did make a difference. It helped. But I didn’t want to be on it forever, so when I asked my doctor about a month ago he said, “The good thing about Paxil is you can stop taking it cold turkey; you don’t have to be weaned off it.” He told me this with confidence — and he’s been a good doctor for me and I trusted him. I found it hard to believe, but I trusted him. He’s a good guy. But like most doctors… well, they speak with authority even when they don’t really know any better than you.

Someone at paxilprogress.org wrote: “When my doctor told me to take such drastic steps to reduce [i.e., cold turkey], I was suspicious but figured he knew better than me — I’ll never make that mistake again.” And neither will I.

My advice to everyone is go with your gut feeling — trust yourself first. My feeling was that I should be weaned off the Paxil — and I don’t care what anyone says, that is exactly what you have to do. Cold turkey my ass. I know that what I’m going through right now cannot be good.
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Thursday, July 6th, 2000 (continued). An email to a friend:

My head feels like it’s filled with helium. This is the weirdest physical sensation I have ever experienced. It’s a physical feeling in my head, which is an unusual place to experience physical sensations other than headaches. And if this doesn’t show any signs of letting up by tomorrow, I’m going on the pills again. It’s almost a physical disability; there’s no way I could work while this is going on.

Dr. Wyndham said I could stop taking the pills without easing myself off it, so that’s what I did. But since I’ve been feeling these whacked out after-effects, I’ve done my own research on the ‘net, and every source I’ve found has said that one should not stop taking Paxil cold turkey, that the best way to go is to ease oneself off it.

I realize the ‘net may not be the most reliable source at times, but everything I’ve read so far from professional sites tells me to do the opposite of what Dr. Wyndham told me — and seeing how I’m feeling some seriously whacked out effects here, I’m a little concerned, and I’m thinking about going back on the Paxil. Dr. Wyndham said I shouldn’t have to go back on it unless going off it made me feel suicidal or severely depressed. I’m not really experiencing any kind of major depressive thoughts or feelings — but sometimes I think I easily could; I don’t know why I’m not.

So naturally I’m concerned. There’s no way I can work 9 to 5 while this is going on.

I had insomnia for most of last night. My appetite seems to have come back today. But I am so light-headed as to be almost disabled — I’m serious. Two or three times a day I have moments where I want to cry uncontrollably and usually do (today’s the second day of that).

I’m probably going to go back on the Paxil tomorrow if these symptoms don’t let up. I’m not depressed (I don’t think so), but my head feels like it’s full of helium every second of my waking day.

I think I could slip into a severe depression if this keeps up much longer.

Friday, July 7th, 2000 (continued).

This is an email message I wrote to a professional counsellor I was seeing this past year (just wrote it today).

I went through some traumatic events this past year that eventually led to my taking 20mg of Paxil every day. The Paxil helped get me through the year. After I got my life back on track, I decided I didn’t want to be on the Paxil anymore (I didn’t want to be on it in the first place, but I was completely desperate at the time, and it did work well for me). So my doctor, who has been a good doctor for me and who I trust, said I could stop taking the Paxil cold turkey. He said I might have mild nausea, headaches, a little dizziness for a couple days, but that it would go away. (How many of you are laughing at that sentence?)

About six days ago, I stopped taking the Paxil. And for the past three days I’ve been barely functional. For the past 72 hours I’ve experienced these wonderfully debilitating electrical surges in my brain every time I move my eyes. (Try going through a day without moving your eyes.) I feel like I’m losing my mind.
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Friday, July 7th, 2000 (continued). This is a repost of someone else’s posting, but I think it’s a good one:

For all of you new people who are just stopping cold turkey, please listen up. Paxil needs to be withdrawn from very slowly. You can not just stop, or stop at 10mg. You need to wean off of it. (Most doctors do not know this). If you go too fast, you will experience severe headaches, nausea, dizziness, electrical zaps, etc., in your brain. I’m telling you this because I’ve been seeing a lot of newcomers trying to get off Paxil quickly and experiencing bad side effects. This is your brain you’re dealing with. Please take it slow. For anyone interested, this is how I did it. 20mg one day, 15mg the next, alternating for three weeks. Then 15mg one day, and 10mg the next, alternating for another three weeks. Then 10mg one day and 5mg the next day, alternating for another three weeks. Then you can go down to 5mg for three weeks. I realize that everyone is different. But this is a sensible way to withdraw. It might take you longer, but it shouldn’t take less time. Give yourself a good three months at least. If you experience any dizziness, you can take Xanax, Dramamine or bonine (or consult your doctor). I just hate to hear about someone stopping cold turkey. Please take good care of yourselves and wean, wean, wean.

Saturday, July 8th, 2000.

I began taking Paxil last year after experiencing a series of traumatic events which left my spirit drained, less humorous, less alive, less caring about living, etc. I wasn’t severely depressed, but it was beginning to interfere with my responsibilities at work, my social relationships, my personal relationships, everything. I eventually took the Paxil at 20mg/day, and it did help.

Meanwhile back on the farm…

I got on the paxilprogress.org forum a few days ago because I was experiencing “brain zaps” after my third day off Paxil cold turkey (doctor’s orders), and I knew I had to do something. For anyone who doesn’t know what “brain zaps” are: It feels like a mild (if there’s such a thing) electric current going through the front of your head, except it’s inside your head. It occurs in fairly regular intervals (for me it was about once every 10 or 20 seconds) — and it kicked in whenever I tried to go sleep on the third day of going cold turkey. It’s not really a “zap” though, more like a surge of electricity, like a thunder storm building up over the horizon, except it’s inside your head and it surges up from zero to overload in about 2 seconds and wipes you out.
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Sunday, July 9th, 2000.

Some people have stronger reactions to Paxil. I know people who are taking Paxil, 20mg a day, and they look sedated. They say when they take the Paxil in the morning, they’re high the rest of the day — so they don’t take the Paxil in the morning; they take it at night just before they go to bed and it works for them better that way. These are people I know who can’t function without Paxil and will probably take it for the rest of their lives.

That’s not the situation I’m in and I plan to wean myself off it eventually. But as someone who has recently experienced the horror of going off it cold turkey like my doctor said I could, my advice (and the advise of everyone on this board) is to wean yourself off it slowly whenever you do decide to stop taking it. Also, it’s possible that the longer you’re on it, the harder it is to get off it. And if after 3 months on Paxil you’re still feeling somewhat sedated or dulled, you may want to try lowering the dosage by 5mg (or take the pill before you go to bed).

I wouldn’t recommend staying on the Paxil for more than a year. Talk to your doctor but listen to the people on this board to. (It seems that most doctors are not very well informed.)

Monday, July 10th, 2000.

Today is my 3rd day back on Paxil after going through the hell of cold turkey withdrawal by my doctor’s orders (my plan now, of course, is to wean myself off it slowly). The electrical surges in my brain immediately disappeared — and that’s the only thing I care about — and I’ve been feeling sleepy with a slight headache ever since. I’m sleeping like a dog, although the timing is still a little bit off (I’m working on that).

Also, my immune system is back to normal. I didn’t realize it at the time, but my immune system went right down the toilet the second I went off the Paxil cold turkey. I had a slight sore throat at the time, which, along with the inside of my mouth, immediately became inflamed and incredibly sore. One side of my gums were swollen and painful and my throat was killing me the whole time.

It’s my 3rd day back on the Paxil and most of that has cleared up on its own.

Did anybody else experience flu symptoms while they were trying to get off the Paxil?

Postscript – February 3rd, 2001: The answer to my question, Did anybody else experience flu symptoms while they were trying to get off the Paxil?, was of course YES. I lost count how many people said YES. I experienced then what those who have lived through paroxetine withdrawal call The Paxil Flu. It’s more than a bad case of the flu. It’s closer to a total breakdown of the immune system. Before I began to wean myself off the Paxil, I started to take daily vitamin supplements, B-Complex especially. That, along with as much regular exercise as I could manage, helped keep me healthy for the duration of my withdrawal (which lasted close to seven months).

Wednesday, July 12th, 2000.

It’s true that some doctors are now becoming aware of Paxil withdrawal. I sent an email to my doctor after I experienced the living hell of cold turkey withdrawal, and yesterday he got back to me. I’ve included his reply in this message just so some of you (at least in Canada) can get an idea where general practitioners are in their understanding of Paxil. It seems that those of us who experience extreme withdrawal are learning about it as our doctors are learning, if not faster.

I’ve edited my doctor’s email message here, removing any remarks that could identify him:

I am sorry that you had such a bad experience on stopping the Paxil. You are right when you state that I was ill-informed when I advised you that withdrawal symptoms would likely be mild and transient. I gave you that information based on the year 2000 edition of the Compendium of Pharmaceuticals and Specialties [C.P.S.] which is the information source most widely used by physicians in Canada. You should be pleased to know that physicians are becoming aware of distressing adverse effects of withdrawal from SSRIs such as Paxil… I recently attended a continuing medical education session on the management of depression where the speaker who is a psychiatrist spoke at some length on ‘withdrawal syndrome’ and the need to taper SSRIs rather than stopping ‘cold turkey.’ I plan to report your experience (without identifying you) to the Canadian Adverse Drug Reaction Monitoring Program at Health Canada in Ottawa. Hopefully they will include a warning to Canadian physicians in the next issue of their Adverse Drug Reaction Newsletter.

P.S. (Sept. 2006): I wonder if doctors are any more aware today of the effects of paxroxetine withdrawal. Is the CPS still “the information source most widely used by physicians in Canada”? Is the CPS still heavily financed by the pharmaceutical industry? I wonder how much has changed in 6 years.

Wednesday, July 12th, 2000 (continued).

This is still my 5th day back on the Paxil after trying to cold turkey. I’m taking 20mg, my regular dose, but if you can believe it, I’m considering increasing it.

Before I went off the Paxil cold turkey as my doctor ordered, I was feeling fine. Happy, functional, smiling joe. Now my 5th day back on Paxil after my terrible cold turkey withdrawal experience, all of my withdrawal symptoms have long gone, and the headaches and the sleepiness I experienced when I first got back on the Paxil have also disappeared.

All I’m left with now is feeling depressed. My body feels fine, but emotionally I’m feeling depressed and easily saddened.

I plan to wean myself off the Paxil, but I need to feel not depressed before I do that. Right now — or at least today — I don’t have the guts to do anything. And I’m not used to feeling like this. It’s not overwhelming yet, but it is interfering with my ability to do what I want to do; that irrational, underlying fear is there. I’m fine when I do talk to people, but I’m not feeling as brave and easy-going as I was before.

I don’t want to increase my dosage. I’m trying to eat well, trying to get outside, trying to be positive, but I don’t feel like any of it. I’m hoping this will pass. I’m hoping I don’t have to increase the Paxil.

I’ll be making a doctor’s appointment today, but does anyone whose been through this having any suggestions? (I hate this shit!)

P.S. (Sept. 2006): That’s the vicious cycle of Paxil. You take it because you feel depressed or you’re axious in social situations. But once you stop taking it, whatever depression or social anxiety you experienced before doesn’t just come back — it comes back with a vengence. Some call this relapse, but how do you relapse into a condition that is worse than what you started with? This is one of the many ways paroxetine messes with your nervous system. Paroxetine may not be considered officially an addictive drug, but I’ve heard from heroin addicts who had an easier time going clean. (See also the Wikipedia entry for SSRI discontinuation syndrome and paxilprogress.org’s Published Withdrawal Studies.)

Thursday, July 13th, 2000.

Okay, today is my 6th day back on Paxil after my attempt going cold turkey. I still plan to wean myself off it, but not yet.

After going back on the Paxil, all the withdrawal effects disappeared — to be replaced by sleepiness. And then on the 4th day, I felt a tiny bit depressed and still sleepy. On the 5th day, I didn’t feel sleepy, but I felt definitely depressed. And today, the 6th day back on the Paxil, I just woke up and I’m not feeling the depression I felt yesterday (at least not yet; I just woke up 30 minutes ago).

So judging from the first day I went off the Paxil cold turkey (as my doctor ordered), up until today, about two weeks of my life were pretty much a write-off. That’s how much of my time this crap wasted.

But I’m trying not to dwell on that, because that’s depressing. I’m certainly not happy any of this happened.

I have noticed, though, that I feel considerably better after I’ve eaten a good meal. And I’m learning what better food to put into my body to give me more energy, which usually translates into more positive mental energy.

Postscript – February 26th, 2001: Here I am grieving over two weeks of my life which were stolen from me because of my initial withdrawal experience. Considering that the worst of the withdrawal would stay with me for about another seven months, it’s no wonder that my perception of time became distorted.

Sunday, September 3rd, 2000.

Background information: I began taking Paxil last year after some unfortunate but traumatic events led me into a depression. After getting over all these experiences, and in a position to move onto greener pastures, I followed my doctors orders and stopped taking Paxil cold turkey. That was a couple months ago.

When I tried getting off the Paxil cold turkey, I went crazy for six days, and then decided to go back on it. But since then I haven’t been the same. Besides the trauma of the withdrawal, which I was totally misinformed and uninformed about, I’ve been feeling more apathetic than I was before I was even on the Paxil. If I told my new doctor this, he’d probably want to up my dosage. Screw that.
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Saturday, September 9th, 2000.

Today is my 4th day of weaning myself off Paxil, but this time I’m doing it slowly. The first time I stopped was cold turkey because my doctor said it was okay to do that. That was a few months ago, and I haven’t been the same since.

It took me this long to get my courage back up to give it another try. Outwardly, I appear pleasant and calm, but inside I’m scared and have been at least for the past month anticipating getting off the Paxil again. As well informed as I’ve become since the hell of my initial withdrawal experience, I’m still scared. Everything I went through during my withdrawal has definitely left an impression on me, and one that I’d much rather have done without.
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Monday, September 18th, 2000.

Today is my 13th day of weaning off Paxil. One week of alternating between 20mg and 15mg, then one week of just 15mg. I’m beginning to think I should have alternated for more than a week. I was going to begin alternating between 15mg and 10mg this Wednesday, but I’m having second thoughts; I may wait a little longer.

I’ve been having headaches for the past few days, I was extremely tired one day, and when I stand up fast I get dizzy. It’s a regular dizziness that doesn’t even compare to the dizziness of cold turkey withdrawal. My spirits aren’t nearly as positive as they were during the first week of weaning.

But what I’m feeling right now feels like a precursor to more severe symptoms. It feels like the worse is about to come. And I’ve begun to feel a little uneasy again, a little worried. I have a feeling the “weepiness” is going to hit me soon. And I hate this not having control of my life. Again, what I’m experiencing now is nothing compared to my cold turkey withdrawal from a few months ago, but that doesn’t give me much comfort.
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Thursday, September 21st, 2000.

Carol said:

I am just so upset because I was put on this for depression and the depression is worse getting off this stuff. I just want my life back.

I want my life back too. I’m in the middle of weaning, and although it’s going relatively smooth, I can still feel the Paxil in me. I don’t think I’m going to feel like myself again until it’s completely out of my system.

As far as feeling depressed again, I got really depressed after my cold turkey withdrawal — and this is after having gone back on the Paxil. I just couldn’t handle not having control over my life again. This is a general feeling I’ve been dealing with since my bout with post-traumatic stress last year. Since then I’ve gone through a series of experiences where I couldn’t do anything about what was happening to me, and then just when things started to look settled again, I followed my doctor’s orders in July and went off the Paxil cold turkey, and wham-o, down I go again. I’m weaning myself slowly off the Paxil now; I’m more or less standing on my own again, but my legs still feel pretty wobbly.
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Thursday, September 21st, 2000 (continued).

I began therapy for post-traumatic stress (PTS) last year. It helped more than anything else could have. It was absolutely the best thing I could have done. Since then I have had other things happen (including my initial Paxil withdrawal) where I felt like I didn’t have any control over my life. I have dealt with the PTS, and I don’t have anymore symptoms (no “flashbacks,” etc.), but so many other things have happened (nonstop it seems) since my initial PTS experience that I just haven’t had the time to rest and recover, to re-evaluate, etc.

I was feeling ready to get on with my life this past July, and so — following my doctor’s orders — stopped taking Paxil cold turkey. And you know how the story goes from there. The only thing I’m afraid of now is what’s going to happen to me next as I continue to wean myself off the Paxil. I keep trying to stay composed, but I am scared out of my mind every step of the way. I can feel those ***king brain zaps ready to pounce on me once I go down to 10mg, and I am not looking forward to it. That’s the only fear that I’m feeling. And that’s a real fear whereas the fear from PTS is largely irrational. PTS was no fun at all, but Paxil sure the hell doesn’t make it any better.

In my work, I can usually write two to three thousand solid words a day. I doubt I’ve written that much in all of the past two weeks. I’m getting through this, but I’m getting sick of it too. I know all about PTS. But most of what I’m experiencing now is just a pain in the ass.

Preface – February 5th, 2001: This is the first post where I included one of the responses to what I’d written. After this I began to keep a better record of all the conversations and exchanges that took place.

Thursday, September 28th, 2000. In response to a post at paxilprogress.org:

Everything I know tells me that alternating 20mg/10mg of Paxil is too much of a drop. The most anyone should alternate or lower a dosage is by 5mg. If you stick to that regiment, it should work. I’m down to 10mg right now, and so far so good.

I told my doctor last week, “You better give me something just incase the brain zaps start creeping up on me, because I am NOT going through that again.” He gave me a prescription for Xanax (aka Alprazolam) which he said is often used to get people through withdrawal from many neurochemical dependencies. No more than twice I day I’ve taken at the most half of a 0.25mg pill (very small amount; sometimes I take a quarter of a pill), and it allows me to walk up and down stairs without experiencing too much dizziness. I am nowhere near 100%, but I’m semi-functional, which I consider an accomplishment.

So by alternating dosages by a maximum of 5mg and taking a little Xanax to “take the edge off,” I’m getting through it. When you try weaning again, the slow route might be the way to go.
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Saturday, October 14th, 2000. A journal entry:

I’m halfway through weaning myself off the Paxil. My life isn’t my own, and I might be dead by Xmas. (Yeah, I’m feeling great.)

The psychiatrist I’ve been seeing is supervising my withdrawal from the Paxil. That’s all he’s doing. As far as talking to him, I get nothing from it. He’s an academic with few insights into anything. He doesn’t seem to have a natural grasp of the kind of person I am. I wish I’d gotten someone who actually talks back with something to say. I think I could pick a random person off the street to act as my therapist and get as much benefit from it.

Wednesday, October 18th, 2000. Responding to something, though I don’t remember what:

Paxil should be an absolute last resort. Communicative therapy (a.k.a. talking) should be tried first. Then there are dietary changes that can make a difference to all kinds of anxiety. You can take vitamin supplements like B-complex to begin with. If you drink caffeine, stop now. Alcohol and cigarettes don’t help with anxiety either (but if you smoke, don’t try quitting while you’re trying to quit something else; trying to quit two things at once will wreck anyone). Making sure to get daily moderate exercise can make a difference. Try a herbal remedy. Listen to good music. Breathe fresh air. Get out in the sunshine.

Speaking from experience, these are basic things that can make a huge difference.

But it’s easier to pop a little pink pill than it is to actually make any real effort to take care of oneself (hence, we have close to two billion dollars in sales of Paxil last year).

It’s easier to take a pill than it is to actually face the fears underlying the social anxiety.

No offense to anyone suffering from panic disorder, but “social anxiety” sound like another made-up term by drug companies. I’ve been shy my whole life. I know what it’s like to be anxious around people and or large crowds. But that doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with me. I consider it a natural reaction to the madness of crowds.
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Wednesday, October 18th, 2000 (continued).

Doug said to a previous message:

This is an excellent response. I agree. However, I must state that I took Paxil for almost 3 years and it seemingly worked wonders for me… for a while.

The people I know personally (not through email or through paxilprogress.org) who took Paxil for extreme anxiety and panic attacks — every single one of them ended up taking on that “sedated” look I mentioned before. And there’s no way that can be good. All of them say they couldn’t live without Paxil, regardless of the weight gain and the sexual dysfunction it causes them. But neither have any of them done anything else except take Paxil to take care of themselves. They’re still living off coffee and cigarettes like they’ve always done. So, in a way, they got what they deserved. Nothing gets better in the absence of a willingness to change. Taking a little pink pill only delays the inevitable.

The calm that Paxil may provide can offer one the opportunity to work on the anxiety, but the anxiety will come back if one doesn’t actually work on it. This is something I see happening with many people, as well as having lived through it myself. It doesn’t take much to figure this one out.

I agree with you that Paxil can and often does make a difference at first. I have no doubt about it that Paxil did help me at one point; it helped me get through an extreme crisis situation, extreme stress, extreme anxiety, all during a time when my coping skills were not so good. For the duration I was on Paxil, I did everything I could to get my act together — and now, except for the anxiety related to the withdrawal, I do have it together (I hope). When I think of how I was, say two years ago, I am amazed at how far I’ve come, how effectively I deal with anxiety and stressful situations when they come up. I’m not 100% all the time, but who the hell is? (Nobody.)
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Preface (Sept. 2006): For awhile after my initial withdrawal experience, I thought I might actually have a chance of getting on with my life if I pushed hard enough. I was wrong, though I didn’t know it at the time. Psychologically, I was in fragile condition. Then one day an incident occured that pushed me over the edge. I’ve decided to remove all the details of it because I don’t want the person involved in the incident to think they drove me to near-suicide. If the following post doesn’t make a lot of sense, that’s why; it’s heavily edited. I was also in a very messed-up state of mind at the time, and it shows.

Sunday, November 5th, 2000 (5th day off Paxil). A journal entry:

…the effects of the cold turkey Paxil withdrawal were totally unexpected and disturbing. Debilitating and nearly constant electrical surges in my brain; they wiped me out. Unable to take any more of it (I gave it a week, a week where every day it got progressively worse), I started taking the pills again. The symptoms went away, but, in a sense, something else went away. And I haven’t been myself since.

A couple weeks after my cold turkey withdrawal, I was driving alone down a long stretch of highway and I pulled over to the side. I reached down into a bag on the floor of the passenger side, looked over my shoulder to make sure I wasn’t about to be ploughed into the ditch by an 18-wheeler, pulled out my notebook and scribbled down a thought that had just occured to me.

The car was still running. I don’t know how long it took me write down the words, probably no more than five minutes. I looked at what I’d written to make sure my handwriting was at least semi-legible. It was. I then got the car going down the shoulder of the highway as fast as I could without crashing, turned onto the highway and away I went…
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Monday, November 27th, 2000 (27th day off Paxil).

I just got back from my seeing my doctor. Today is my 82nd day of weaning off the Paxil. I don’t know how long I’ve been down to zero; two or three weeks, I suppose. I’ve been seeing this psychiatrist because I needed someone who supposedly knew what they were doing to supervise my weaning off of the Paxil. So far he’s done a good enough job. But as far as therapy is concerned, my sessions with him have never been a catharsis of healing. Occasionally, though, I manage to have a conversation with him, like I did today, that does provides some insight, or maybe it’s hope. In the midst of all this, hope can go a long way. So anyhoo…

I mentioned to him today how my libido went through the roof a few weeks ago and stayed that way for about two weeks, but how that peak period of vitality has since come and gone. This was around the period in the weaning when I was almost off the Paxil completely. It might have kicked in during the last few days I was on 5mg. That peak period lasted about two weeks after that and now it’s gone.
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Tuesday, November 28th, 2000 (28th day off Paxil). In response to a message on paxilprogress.org:

I don’t think the paresthesia/electrical sensations in my eyes and my head are caused by anxiety and stress. I had plenty of anxiety and stress before I went on and subsequently tried to get off Paxil, and it’s NEVER felt like this. I have had tension headaches in the past, but what I’m experiencing now is something completely different altogether.

The zaps are the cause of the anxiety and stress, not the other way around.

This isn’t an argument to me. It’s a statement of fact. I tried getting off the Paxil and immediately, for the first time in my life, began experiencing the brain zaps. This is the most obvious, simple, straight forward equation. It’s a neurochemical reaction that’s happening in my brain because of this drug. If I’m feeling any anxiety, depression or stress, 95% of it is coming from this experience of trying to get off this drug.

Overall, I have been physically and mentally healthy my whole life. My doctor keeps asking me, referring to the brain zaps and the electrical heaviness in my eyes, “Are you sure you’ve never experienced anything like this before?” I’ve never taken an anti-depressant before Paxil, I’ve never “experimented” with LSD, cocaine or anything stronger than pot, and when I did, I was never a dopehead. I’ve never been an alcoholic. I don’t have a history of this sort of thing. I have no doubt that these electrical sensations in my head are caused by the Paxil.

I wasn’t feeling any stress or anxiety until I tried getting off the Paxil, and what I’m experiencing now is not due to any pre-existing condition that I know of. I may be feeling depressed, and I may be experiencing some anxiety — but my brain goes into an electrical seizure every time I move too suddenly or move my eyes too fast or have any kind of bright light shone in my face. Is not a little stress and anxiety a normal reaction to such a disturbing experience? I’d say it is. (Some people may say to this, “Get over it. ” But I’ll get over it once it stops.)
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Friday, December 1st, 2000 (31st day off Paxil). Responding to a comment on paxilprogress.org:

I was in complete control of my weaning off Paxil. My doctor was only there to supervise the process and to give me a prescription of Xanax when I needed it. He suggested I go down by 10mg, but I said no way. I had tried it cold turkey and it nearly killed me, and I knew whatever I did, I wasn’t going to rush it. So I went down by 5mg every two weeks or so, and it was a relatively smooth ride.

If your doctor had you go down by 10mg at a time, it’s probably because the “current medical literature” suggests that he do so. In other words, he’s just reading out of book. The book says do this and he does what the book tells him to do. But, unfortunately, those books don’t take into account individual variations — the fact that everyone is different.

Personally, I think a 10mg drop is always too much. It’s a guaranteed rough ride if you ask me.

If you just got down to zero after being at 10mg and you’re feeling dizzy, etc., I’d take 5mg for awhile, until you feel ready to go down to zero.

When I got down to zero, which was a few weeks ago now, many of the symptoms lingered, especially the dizziness and the electrical sensations. On the two or three days in which I couldn’t hack it, despite the Xanax, I took a tiny little piece of Paxil, and it helped. I’m sure I could have roughed it out, but allowing myself to take just a little bit made the journey a little more bearable. At no time did I go back to taking the Paxil every day, or become dependent on it again, and now that I’m completely off it, the road is still a bit rough, but I’m a thousand times better off now than when I was withdrawing from the Paxil.

Your doctor didn’t lower your dosage to 5mg probably, first of all, because GlaxoSmithKline doesn’t officially make a 5mg pill, which, in your doctor’s mind (and the minds of many other doctors) means that 5mg isn’t a therapeutic dose. So it probably doesn’t even enter his mind to prescribe 5mg daily. Secondly, your doctor most likely just doesn’t know any better.

If you think you should be on 5mg before going down to zero, do it.

Friday, December 1st, 2000 (continued).

Anne said: “I have a test Monday evening, and I am having a hard time trying to get into it.”

Since I’ve been weaning off the Paxil, I’ve been bunked out in my parents’ basement, living with them way out in the country, not doing much of anything, not seeing much of anyone. I was about to enter the second year of my graduate programme when, following my doctor’s orders, I tried to get off the Paxil cold turkey in early July, and my life hasn’t been mine since.

The stuff that I study in university takes some heavy duty brain power, and I knew that I’d never be able to perform at the expected level, so I managed to get a leave of absence from my programme for this year. If I hadn’t been granted a leave of absence, by now I would have failed out of the programme, without a doubt.

All I meant to get at here is how amazed I am that anyone can live a normal life while going through Paxil withdrawal and post-Paxil withdrawal. As well as I’ve been able to keep it together, I don’t think I’d be able to do it if my parents weren’t letting me live with them rent-free and if I hadn’t gotten the leave of absence from my programme.

I give a tip of the hat to anyone who has managed to live a relatively normal life while going through all this. I don’t know how you do it.

Wednesday, December 6th, 2000 (continued).

Someone said:

“Do you think how one gets off Paxil depends on why one went on it in the first place? Like if someone went on it for bad depression as opposed to someone (like me) who went on it for other reasons than depression? Maybe that is why it was easier for me to get off it?”

You’re probably right. The longer you were taking it probably makes it harder to get off it too.

Also, I’m not sure about this one, but anyone who manages to wean themselves off the Paxil slowly is, perhaps, less likely to have a rough ride — as opposed to someone who found out the hard way by trying to get off Paxil cold turkey and ended up having go back on it and start all over again.

I followed my doctor’s orders and stopped taking the Paxil cold turkey and went through a week of pure hell. I think that experience was such a shock to my brain and my neurochemistry that my nervous system has never fully recovered and, subsequently, the weaning process has been more harsh for me than it would have otherwise been.
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Saturday, December 16th, 2000 (46th day off Paxil).

On trying to get off Paxil, did anyone’s doctor switch them over to Prozac? I’ve been reading a pile of medical journals and articles today that recommend that doctors do this for patients having difficulty getting off Paxil. I’m just curious if anyone has done this and if it worked…

Response:

Yes! I have just begun this process this week. I am on my 4th day of taking 10mg Prozac as I slowly taper off Paxil. I have been on Paxil 20mg/day for more than 4 years and have tried to get off it about 5-6 times over the past 2 years, only to experience the severe withdrawal effects that were intolerable for me when I got down to 5 mg.

About 3 weeks ago I found several message boards that let me know that I am not alone in this struggle to get off Paxil. Because I could not get any medical support about this, no one knew what I was talking about. And by the way, I only recently started going to a new doctor, who has been very agreeable to help me with this. I have talked to several doctors, pharmacists, psychiatrists, and a physician’s assistant who works in a drug rehab clinic, and have some references that recommend this method. Titrate each medication: one up (Prozac), one down (Paxil).

The best reference I have found about this is the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 1997;58 pages 37-40. The article is “Clinical Management of Antidepressant Discontinuation.”

I understand why this method would work, that is, it makes sense, as long as it is combining very low doses. I am down to 5mg Paxil for the past 3 days, with only 4 days of Prozac 10mg/day so far in my system, after doing 10/5/5/10, Paxil only.

Thursday, January 11th, 2001 (72nd day off Paxil).

Randy said:

I saw a psychiatrist yesterday for the first time ever. Of course he doesn’t know of Paxil withdrawal to any degree. He wanted to talk about my birth experience! He does not agree that my symptoms are due to withdrawal and wants to talk about my early childhood and relationships. F*** off! What’s the point!

My response:

Tell me about it, man. When I began weaning off Paxil, I decided to do it under the supervision of a shrink — not a psychologist, a psychiatrist. As a medical supervisor, he knows what he’s doing. He, like many psychiatrists, knows how to deal with a psychological problem with drugs. If you feel this, take that. If you feel that, take this. Utterly useless. When he actually does have an insight, it seems to be something right out Psychiatry for Dummies. Talking to my dog is more therapeutic.
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Thursday, January 11th, 2001 (continued).

Hi everybody,

I want to reproduce a short exchange Matt and I just had in case you missed it.

Me:

By the way, the zaps, which for me were in my eyes, behind my eyes and in my head, and for others can spread to just about any part of the body (e.g., the face, arms and legs, etc.) — if you look up the paresthesia of sensory epilepsy, you’ll see that the electrical sensations and the pattern of the surges are remarkably similar. The surges begin with one overwhelming surge and then continue, dissipating in strength, but in a continuous rhythm, in waves. I’m talking about SENSORY EPILEPSY. Sound familiar?

Matt:

I work in the area of disability — and recently had a presentation by a colleague on epilepsy. She said the jolts people experience on falling to sleep (big with Paxil usage) are called clonic seizures and are a form of epileptic activity — I’m sure the zaps are too. I don’t want to scare anyone with this — because we all have the propensity for this as we are all “electric” — I just thought it explained a lot.

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Thursday, February 22nd, 2001.

I spent a solid seven months withdrawing and recovering from Paxil. Only recently have I been able to get on with my life, or at least begin to take the first steps. I feel confident in moving forward, but at the same time I feel uneasy. It’s as if I don’t know if I’m the same person I was before all this began. Has anyone who has survived withdrawal experienced this apprehension?

Sometimes I seem to slip into a state of shock when I’m struck by the fact that seven months of my life were consumed by withdrawing and recovering from Paxil. I become almost bawled over by a tremendous sense of loss. It’s emotionally numbing. The more I get out into the world again, the more I realize how much of my life I’ve lost, and it doesn’t feel so good; it’s surreal and sad at the same time. I should be feeling good that I’m getting on with my life after the Paxil withdrawal, but all I seem to be feeling is this sense of loss. I didn’t expect to feel this way.

First response:

November 3rd, 2000. That was the day I ingested my last Paxil pill (I was down to 5mg for a month). It was a day of celebration for me! This was my fourth and last attempt to leave that fog I was in. My family couldn’t understand why I was so excited. They have been supportive but I don’t think they can truly understand! Since that day I have experienced a whole new set of problems, I would say at the neurological level.

I understand how you’re feeling. Everyone that has suffered bad effects from Paxil have had differences, but we have all suffered. I’ve read stories about people who feel great after finally getting off. I am not one of them and you may not be either. I can’t measure my recovery day by day. I can only look back from month to month and see improvement.

I sense you are strong and determined to get better and that’s part of it. I am better than I was three months ago, but I still feel I have a way to go. Please keep telling yourself you can do it. There are us out here that are willing to support you.

Second response:

You’re where I was after I spent one solid year trying to recover from the withdrawals of Paxil. One day I declared that it was officially “over” (little did I know), and then was overcome by the most profound grief I had ever experienced. Not only did I mourn the amount of time I’d spent being in hell, but I was mourning some part of me that I felt had been robbed — eradicated — by Paxil. I felt disconnected to a world through which I once moved so swiftly and easily.

I now viewed the world as a hostile environment; after all, the doctor I had trusted lied to me and coerced me and then betrayed me. I no longer had my innocent trusting nature. I felt as though I had been held hostage and was now released into a world that I didn’t like very much. It was the most devastating experience of my life.

It took another year for me to comprehend what true damage this drug had done to me and with each realization I became madder and madder (at least that was better than sobbing every day). Someone told me that my anger would get me through it quicker than anything else because it seemed that I was going through the stages of grief that one experiences when a loved one has died. It took another year for me to get to the acceptance stage, albeit reluctantly. I was not happy that I’d been changed, but I just kept telling myself that it was okay — there were still plenty of things for me to do besides what I did in my previous career.

So you are not alone. I think all these feelings, troubling as they might be, are perfectly normal. We have been robbed of a period of our lives and we can never get back even one day that we spent with the headspins, the visual lags or the zaps. So good to hear your update. I wish it were more positive, but I do believe that you will still continue to get better as time goes on.

Third response:

I’m so glad you posted this. Here’s why:

During the worst of the withdrawal symptoms, I called around trying to find a good talk therapist because I felt so upset — I felt I’d benefit from talking with someone about this. I saw someone this past Tuesday. It was just a consultation appointment; I like to check these people out first before getting into my feelings. What really took me by total surprise was that very intense emotions welled up inside me and came out in that brief session. I even cried! I couldn’t believe how hurt and sad I felt. I told this therapist that I had no idea all these feelings were so intensely deep inside and that I wasn’t sure what to do with them all.

She was a DUD therapist and didn’t offer even a glance of empathy, so that made it all the more painful. But, I discovered during that experience that I’m grieving a tremendous loss and feeling of having wasted years on this medication. My feelings are just incredibly intense regarding my concerns about what this drug may have done to me. It’s overwhelming at times.

Know that you’re not alone. I’m so glad you shared this.

Fourth response:

Yes, I identify with your feelings a lot. I wouldn’t be surprised if many people feel a grieving over their experience. Just wait: some dorky psychologist will coin the phrase “Post Traumatic Paroxetine Disorder” to address this. I hope not, but there is a need for a time of valid grieving in my opinion. It would make sense.

There has been tremendous betrayal and loss with the experiences we share. We’ve been abused by the drug industry, basically, and cheated by our doctors, who should have known better. And yes, as you put it so well, the time and the life we’ve lost and the horror and fear we’ve experienced during withdrawal have been great. I alternate between feelings of grieving and sadness — and feelings of anger towards the medical “profession” (along with plenty of mixed feelings towards friends who were far from friendly with me during my withdrawal). I’ve really lost respect towards the medical profession in general. I think it’s become so specialized that the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing, and we’re all suffering for it. Plus, no one in the profession really holds peers accountable for their actions. Their little comradery on the golf course is more important than the ethics of their job.

Monday, May 14th, 2001.

Alice wrote:

I was wondering, is it possible that going off 30mg of Paxil cold turkey may have affected me neurologically?

My response:

Yes, it may have affected you neurologically, and I often wonder the same thing, whether my cold turkey experience caused permanent neurological damage. And, despite my optimism at times, I don’t really know the answer to that question.

I have been off Paxil since November, but I am still feeling the effects of the withdrawal. Maybe the cold turkey withdrawal did cause permanent damage of some kind. I’m not sure. I can only wait and see how things go. My body and my mind have gradually been readjusting to being Paxil-free, but, for me, the adjustment is still going on, so I’m not able to say how permanent any of the damage is yet.

I can’t judge my level of anxiety or my mental state too well right now either because there’s nothing about my present situation which is socially normal. In February I tried to get back into the real world and find a job, etc., but I got hit with extremely bad headaches for a month before I finally had to come back to where I am now, out in the middle of nowhere, sitting around doing nothing, feeling useless.

My problem hasn’t been anxiety, per se. What I’ve been experiencing is extreme muscle tension, especially in my head and neck, but not exclusive to my head and neck. If you know how to crack your knuckles — my whole body makes that sound. I’ve tried to describe this before, but I’m afraid of sounding like some guy who wears a tinfoil hat to keep the alien signals from penetrating his brain through the fillings in his teeth. When I describe this stuff, it seems as crazy to me as it does to anyone else. But imagine the sound of your knuckles cracking. I get that around my head. My head feels like it’s filled with wet cement. It’s not like the electrical shock sensations, but it’s not much better either.
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May 29th and July 26th, 2001.

I want to talk about the common thread which I think is apparent in the experiences of everyone who has been through paroxetine withdrawal; and, in big bold letters, that common thread is THE FEELING OF BEING CUT OFF FROM THE WORLD. Often it’s not just a feeling; it’s a reality. There are plenty of other crappy things I could single out, things others may consider more important issues, but for me, this is the big one because I’m still working on it; it’s the one which I think causes the most damage and requires the most healing.

Oliver Sacks addresses this in his book, Awakenings (1990 edition), when he describes how a disease can consume a person’s life, consume all of their energy and attention for such a long period of time that (from page 240): “they feel, on the one hand, cut-off or withdrawn from the world, on the other hand immersed, or engrossed, in their illness,” a feeling which I’m sure anyone living with paroxetine withdrawal can relate to. Then he goes on to speak about the ‘awakening,’ or the recovery, in which one ceases to feel the presence of the dis-ease, but is instead naturally drawn towards and engaged by the presence of everything in the living world around them.

It’s been just over a year since my initial withdrawal experience and I wish I could say that I no longer feel the presence of this disease, but I can’t. (Paroxetine withdrawal, and post-withdrawal, is a dis-ease. I’d love to meet someone going through withdrawal who’s sitting back at ease with all of it.) It is less present than it used to be for me, but, along with other symptoms which I am too sick and tired of to describe in detail, I have chronic pain (as in all the time) which disrupts the relaxed flow of my thoughts and feelings and kind of takes the fun out of things; it gets to me at times. It is this cognitive disruption, one which seems physiological in origin, that interferes with my fully feeling the presence of the world around me like I used to, of my fully being able to be myself. I’ve been trying to “walk it off” all this time, but I can’t.

Throughout my Paxil Experience I’ve had people full of good intentions pass on to me the age-old advice, “Don’t dwell on what’s happening to you. Just go outside and enjoy the sunshine and the simple things. You’ll feel a whole lot better.” That’s a simple solution that works, and I know it works because I’ve lived by it for many years — but it works for people who have their health, not for someone who feels like they’ve been hit in the head with an aluminum bat from the withdrawal seizures and the constant headaches and body aches. Let’s crack one of these good-intentioned people across the head with a two-by-four and then tell them not to focus on the pain (impossible); tell them to go out for a leisurely walk while their head is pulsing with pain and enjoy the sunshine which will surely make them feel so much better. Maybe then they’ll realize how misplaced and absurd some of that age-old wisdom can be, especially when it comes from people who don’t have the experience to back it up.
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